2024 USA Election: Wishin' and Hopin'

So here we are, a year before campaigning normally starts, and these are the declared runners and riders who are a wishin' and a hopin' to become President.

Nimrata Nikki Haley, Republican -if you don't know who she is, you might want to find out. Or not.

Donald J Trump, Republican -the Fake President who has lost every election he was a candidate in, not the best basis on which to seek the nomination.

Vivek Ramaswamy, Republican- apparently known only to viewers of Fox News, and given his views, not going to be known to many more.
Rich Jerk Runs For President Because 'Woke Capitalism' Is Bad (gizmodo.com)

Ron De Santis, Republican -oh go on, Ron, run!

John Bolton, Republican -because there's a war on, and I do war.

Mike Pence, Republican -will he? Won't he? Who cares?

Marianne Williamson, Democrat -who? Indeed! Even this link doesn't inspire much curiosity.
Self-help author Marianne Williamson reveals long-shot 2024 primary bid against Joe Biden (yahoo.com)

Joe Biden, Democrat -and why not? He thinks he can do it, and so does his wife, so what do Americans want?

Is this the campaign song?

Dusty Springfield - Wishin' And Hopin' - YouTube

@Stavros:The MAGA Party has terrible candidates for the Republican Nomination.Most Americans will vote to re-elect Joe Biden for a second term as president,and to prevent the MAGA King Donald Trump from ever becoming president again,because it'll be alot worse than his first term. Yes it is the campaign song.

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

@Stavros:The MAGA Party has terrible candidates for the Republican Nomination.Most Americans will vote to re-elect Joe Biden for a second term as president,and to prevent the MAGA King Donald Trump from ever becoming president again,because it'll be alot worse than his first term. Yes it is the campaign song.

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I used to like Biden - until he decided he could determine whether or not I was Black.....
I do like what Andrew Yang has been doing though....

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

I'll say it yet again.
I support Tulsi Gabbard - who would make a much better POTUS than Biden IMHO....

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

I do like what Andrew Yang has been doing though....

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Let's hope this ages better than your previous enthusiasm (now MAGA favourite).

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

I used to like Biden - until he decided he could determine whether or not I was Black.....
I do like what Andrew Yang has been doing though....

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Sorry, don't understand this. Must have missed something.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Sorry, don't understand this. Must have missed something.

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I assume he's referring to this comment. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/22/bide...-or-trump.html

It's interesting that Mr F seems more concerned about one Biden comment (which he apologised for) than he is about Trump's long history of encouraging bigots and fraternising with white supremacists.

Interesting article on Ron De Santis's history of shape-shifting to advance his career according to which way the political winds were blowing. https://www.vox.com/politics/2362271...al-opportunism

Right-wing politics seems to have degenerated into a perfomative game of pandering to the prejudices of their voters. Whatever one's view on the policies of Thatcher and Reagan, they did at least appear to be acting out of a genuine conviction.

Those Republicans who have welcomed De Santis as a counter to Trump may be in for an unpleasant surprise. It's looking like he intends to try to win the nomination by competing with Trump to appeal to the MAGA America First crowd.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/3/...publican-split

When a person describes Russia's brutal invasion as a "territorial dispute" that is pretty disingenuous.

This raises a couple of questions:
1. If you agree with Trump on most things then what is your argument for why Republicans should vote for your rather than him?
2. If it comes down to electability, how is trying to out-MAGA Trump going to win over swinging voters who dislike Trump?

The question raised as it has been done here before, is: How do Republicans appeal to voters who do not normally vote for them, and do they even care about them? De Santis is no different from the others in appealing only to those voters who support the party position on firearms and the 2nd Amendment, anti-Abortion strategies, border hysteria, 'charter schools' and an hostility to Critical Race Theory that is so ignorant of this school of jurisprudence as to be little more than anti-Black racism.

Is it the case that Republicans know they cannot win the popular vote (as Nikki Haley pointed out in her speech the other week), but can win the Electoral College, even if it means using voter suppression, and newly elected State/Election officials to manipulate the vote? If this is true it suggest the 2024 election is going to descend into chaos fairly quickly if Biden is re-elected, assuming he is the candidate.

But what legitimacy would such a Republican have if barely 30% of the voters vote for him or her, and the evidence of 'rigging' on their side if clear?

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

@Stavros:The MAGA Party has terrible candidates for the Republican Nomination.Most Americans will vote to re-elect Joe Biden for a second term as president,and to prevent the MAGA King Donald Trump from ever becoming president again,because it'll be alot worse than his first term. Yes it is the campaign song.

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Let's also not forget that Black America support for Harris was so abysmal - she dropped out of contention without even making it to the primaries.

Kamala Harris flames out: Black people didn't trust her, and they were wise not to
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/2638096001/

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Let's also not forget that Black America support for Harris was so abysmal - she dropped out of contention without even making it to the primaries.

Kamala Harris flames out: Black people didn't trust her, and they were wise not to
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/2638096001/

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Clarification required, because according to Thombergon-

"Y'all. Harris currently enjoys a 72% approval rating among Black Americans. It's only slightly lower than her 77% approval among Democrats. Black voters were lukewarm on Harris at the top of a ticket in a must-win election because they (rightly) suspected that America is still too racist and misogynist to elect a black woman to the Presidency.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...rs-2020-075651

Harris is 57 years old and currently holds the highest elected office any woman has held in American history. If you're anti-Kamala, you better steel yourself because she's going to be bothering you for another couple decades or so."
Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation! - Page 2 (hungangels.com) (post#11)

Apparently, almost nobody votes for a presidential ticket based on who the VP candidate is. Kamala isn’t running for president unless something bad happens to Biden. If that does happen, Kamala will have to compete to be the 2024 candidate just like anybody else, no guarantee that she will be the candidate. She may be able to claim that her time as VP qualifies her more than others (or maybe not). If Kamala actually needs to step in during Biden’s term (for example if Biden dies and Kamala becomes president for a time) then that experience will probably be more important.

I don’t really see much point in discussing Kamala… her position is mostly as backup. (She does have a lot of historical importance for women and people of color though.)

Are we really going to witness the spectacle of Biden vs Trump in 2024? Is it a case of 'Do I get to win this time?' for Putin's little friend?

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Originally Posted by Luke Warm

(She does have a lot of historical importance for women and people of color though.)

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And even with that, Blacks didn't support her prior to the primaries....Good to know that "we" won't vote for someone purely because they're Black....Bigger question is will Biden continue with her as VP?

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Bigger question is will Biden continue with her as VP?

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100% yes. That was a winning formula in 2020 so why change it? I think the general consensus among Democrats is that Biden is doing much better than people expected, and overall this administration has had some success. Switching to another VP candidate would be like admitting there was a big problem with Kamala when a big problem doesn’t really exist.

If you see polls saying that Kamala has unfavorable polling, just ignore it, it’s meaningless. Nobody votes for who the VP candidate is. Some people dislike her because she’s not liberal enough, some people dislike her because she’s too liberal, some people dislike her because they don’t understand the job of VP is mainly backup. The reasons that some people dislike her are all over the board, there is no single reason all those people can agree on. At the end of the day, she will be running with Biden in 2024 again, and all those democrats who told pollsters that they don’t like Kamala (or Biden) will still vote Democratic. Again. Because the alternative is considered much worse.

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Originally Posted by Luke Warm

100% yes. That was a winning formula in 2020 so why change it?

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I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Not arguing against you - but so far, nothing has been officially stated.

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Originally Posted by Luke Warm

If you see polls saying that Kamala has unfavorable polling, just ignore it, it’s meaningless. Nobody votes for who the VP candidate is. Some people dislike her because she’s not liberal enough, some people dislike her because she’s too liberal, some people dislike her because they don’t understand the job of VP is mainly backup. The reasons that some people dislike her are all over the board, there is no single reason all those people can agree on. At the end of the day, she will be running with Biden in 2024 again, and all those democrats who told pollsters that they don’t like Kamala (or Biden) will still vote Democratic. Again. Because the alternative is considered much worse.

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It has nothing to do with polls IMHO, we Blacks didn't support her because of certain things that she did - hence the reason why she dropped out before even the primaries had started. And IMHO, I can think of a few Black women that I'd pick over her.
But technically, she's not Black......so I guess that makes my point moot.....:cool:

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

It has nothing to do with polls IMHO, we Blacks didn't support her because of certain things that she did - hence the reason why she dropped out before even the primaries had started. And IMHO, I can think of a few Black women that I'd pick over her.
But technically, she's not Black......so I guess that makes my point moot.....:cool:

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You make assertions without addressing the need for clarification in my post#11 above, not least because of the words you use 'we Blacks' for example. Dare I suggest you do not speak for all Black Americans, or even a majority?

The complexities of voting and representation are contained in this fascinating examination of the 'urban-rural' divide in the US, if in fact it exists. It suggests, for example, that rural Black Americans may face the same levels of poverty that exist for Black Americans in cities, but also that with the right management and funding, poverty among Black Americans might also not be bad in either rural or urban areas.
The ‘rural-urban divide’ furthers myths about race and poverty—concealing effective policy solutions (brookings.edu)

As for individuals, well maybe you could give us your 'top picks' of Black American women, given that I am only familiar this side of the Atlantic with those who I have seen on tv, eg Val Demings. One notes, in addition that there have been prominent Black American women before, Condoleezza Rice being an obvious one. And at one time Carol Mosely Braun was tipped as a high flyer but did not advance beyond the Senate to the White House.

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

I used to like Biden - until he decided he could determine whether or not I was Black.....

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

But technically, she's not Black......so I guess that makes my point moot.....:cool:

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So it's okay for you to determine whether someone else is "Black"? I'm pretty sure there is actually no such thing as "Black"; there is just people who have some degree of African ancestry (which she has on her father's side).

It's ironic that you keep speaking for "we Blacks" after previously complaining about people making generalisations about "Blacks".

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Originally Posted by Stavros

You make assertions without addressing the need for clarification in my post#11 above, not least because of the words you use 'we Blacks' for example. Dare I suggest you do not speak for all Black Americans, or even a majority?

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It looks like the courageous MrF has gone back to blocking us. I'm not sure what the point of joining discussions is if a person refuses to explain or defend what they've posted.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

It looks like the courageous MrF has gone back to blocking us. I'm not sure what the point of joining discussions is if a person refuses to explain or defend what they've posted.

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I don't see the point of blocking someone. It is possible to read posts without logging in, so all of them will be listed and if Mr Fanti or anyone else doesn't want to read someone else's post, they won't. As Mr Fanti rarely goes into any discussion about his views, I guess we must just accept he doesn't want to, disappointing though it is.

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Originally Posted by Luke Warm

100% yes. That was a winning formula in 2020 so why change it? I think the general consensus among Democrats is that Biden is doing much better than people expected, and overall this administration has had some success. Switching to another VP candidate would be like admitting there was a big problem with Kamala when a big problem doesn’t really exist.

If you see polls saying that Kamala has unfavorable polling, just ignore it, it’s meaningless. Nobody votes for who the VP candidate is. Some people dislike her because she’s not liberal enough, some people dislike her because she’s too liberal, some people dislike her because they don’t understand the job of VP is mainly backup. The reasons that some people dislike her are all over the board, there is no single reason all those people can agree on. At the end of the day, she will be running with Biden in 2024 again, and all those democrats who told pollsters that they don’t like Kamala (or Biden) will still vote Democratic. Again. Because the alternative is considered much worse.

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Kamala Harris Trashed In White House Leak: 2 Former Officials Say Joe Biden 'Irked' By VEEP For Not 'Rising to Occasion' Or Taking 'Anything Off His Plate'
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...2hs&li=BBnbfcL

Has any Vice-President been the target of such hostile press coverage in the way that Kamala Harris has been and continues to be? Given that Vice-Presidents tend to be in the shadow of the President, and I guess it is up to him to give the VP tasks, I wonder if the fact that the current Vice-President is a Woman, and a Woman of Colour is the motivation. The Murdoch Press hates her. The Barclay owned Telegraph is relentless in its attacks on her.

Even some people on HungAngels detest her, without saying why.

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Let's also not forget that Black America support for Harris was so abysmal - she dropped out of contention without even making it to the primaries.

Kamala Harris flames out: Black people didn't trust her, and they were wise not to
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/2638096001/

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Did MrF actually read this article he posted? It claims that black people did not support her because she was too tough on crime and didn't push police reform when she was AG. Isn't that what he said he wanted?

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Agreed 100%
What the Democrats are AFRAID of is stopping all this violence in THEIR cities!

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Here's an interesting data point:
81 Percent of Black Americans Want the Same Level, or More, of Police Presence: Gallup
https://reason.com/2020/08/06/81-per...esence-gallup/

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Two more names for the hat-

Asa Hutchinson, as in...who?

Joe Manchin, perhaps...but why? Hasn't he had enough publicity for one lifetime?

And so far this all looks like a list of losers.

Asa Hutchinson announces candidacy for Republican presidential nomination | US elections 2024 | The Guardian

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Asa Hutchinson, as in...who?

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He's the only one not echoing Trump's line on the indictment. How hard would it be for these people to just say something like "I have concerns, but let's wait to see how the process works out"? How do they expect to beat Trump if they are afraid to criticise him?
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...hdraw-00090058

Another one lights the rust-

"Robert F Kennedy Jr, an anti-vaccine activist and scion of one of the most famous American political families, is running for president."

-Running for the Democrat Party nomination because as yet the Party of Cranks and Weirdos has not been registered. Scary.

"A photo posted on Instagram showed Kennedy backstage at a July 2021 Reawaken America event with the Trump ally Roger Stone, former national security adviser Michael Flynn and anti-vaccine profiteer Charlene Bollinger. All three have promoted the lie about the 2020 election being stolen.


Bollinger has appeared with Kennedy at multiple events. She and her husband sponsored an anti-vaccine, pro-Trump rally near the Capitol on January 6. Bollinger celebrated the attack and her husband tried to enter the Capitol. Kennedy later appeared in a video for their Super Pac."
Anti-vaccine activist Robert Kennedy Jr announces run for president | US politics | The Guardian

'From cotton to Congress' -I think this is going to need some more spin...and credibility?

Tim Scott Launches 2024 Presidential Exploratory Committee (yahoo.com)

Lmaoooo at framing any issue with CRT as "anti black racism"

I guess intellectuals like fucking JOHN MCWORTER are racist. Absolute fucking clowns on this board!

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Originally Posted by dirkmcgee

Lmaoooo at framing any issue with CRT as "anti black racism"

I guess intellectuals like fucking JOHN MCWORTER are racist. Absolute fucking clowns on this board!

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It is a pity you don't offer a more detailed complaint. I understand the frustration some people have with so-called 'Third Wave' this and that, be it Feminism or Race, but it comes from decades of disappointment bordering on rage, that the gains that were made in the 1960s have been successfully targeted by the political Right in the US, crucially on the right to vote.

I have been reading the sequence of articles in The Guardian on Slavery, Cotton and Manchester (where The Guardian was first published) but have found the argument on Reparations hard to take for reasons I might elaborate in another thread. I understand that Reparations means more than financial compensation, and that it seeks an overhaul of the mind-set or mentality that supports a Race-based interpretation of history, and the contemporary practices that some argue disadvantage Black people in a systemic manner.

CRT to my mind offers a powerful critique of the way in which the law has been used since the end of the Civil War, to either limit or even deny the Freedom that was guaranteed in the 14th Amendment, and in numerous laws passed since then. For while McWorter can attack 'Third Wave' of 'Woke AntiRacism' he understands how in the aftermath of the Civil War, Black Americans rather than go berserk across the South murdering their former 'owners', used education and opportunity to succeed across a variety of ways of life, in particular being elected to public office. But of the 700 or so Black Elected Officials c1880, by 1905 there were none. The age of Black advancement was matched by the emergence of the KKK, for the simple reason that some White folks refused to accept that any Black person be regarded as their equal. McWorter is aware of the 'Jim Crow' era and condemns it.

Now consider how, 100 years after the end of the Civil War, the Johnson Administration and Congress combined to reverse the reversals, end segregation and create a more level playing field for Black Americans -and how, when the ink was barely dry on the Voting Rights Act of 1965 the 'political Right' began to organize against everything that the 1960s tried to do, including rights for Women and what we now call LGBTQ+ communities and individuals. And also bear in mind that this movement against Freedom has been successful, that Voter Suppression is a reality, that it is not accidental or coincidental, that the Districts which Trump claims 'rigged' or 'stole' his election success in Michigan and Georgia, are in demographic terms, mostly Black.

The Republicans and their front organizations -the Cato Institute, the Christian Evangelicals, think tanks funded by the Koch Bros and other Billionaires have been on the attack since the 1960s and are not letting go, and have discovered in Trans people a fresh new target, but are also meeting a robust response. Yes, it is ugly, and sometimes over the top, but when people start using words like 'Fascism' or 'Totalitarian' they are disguising the nature of the confrontation, which remains a fundamental problem that some White people have, that they cannot and will not accept that Black people are their equals, and must have equal rights, and this must mean an Equality of Opportunity, and an Equality of Outcome.

There may be other ways to debate these issues in public, and attempting to make White people feel Guilty for Slavery these days is pointless, but works to get the same people upset, so that nobody wins the argument, and all you get is the ignorant drivel of Donald Trump and Ron De Santis, a diet of grievance, accusation and threats, when they are the people who have moved heaven and earth to turn the clock back to 1860 or for that matter 1660.

And what are the real issues that the candidates in 2024 should be talking about? Who benefits from this tempest of noise that avoids the hard stuff?

For the Republic(ans)...Larry Elder, presumably known to Americans?

"Naming policing and crime as two areas of particular concern to him, he told the host: “We’ve incentivised women to marry the government. We’ve incentivised men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility. And if I do nothing else in this race, but focus people on those two issues… I would perform this service to my country.”"
Larry Elder: Who is the latest Republican throwing his hat into the ring for 2024? (yahoo.com)

An unusual take on marriage...

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Originally Posted by dirkmcgee

Lmaoooo at framing any issue with CRT as "anti black racism"

I guess intellectuals like fucking JOHN MCWORTER are racist. Absolute fucking clowns on this board!

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I had to look him up. I can tell you’re a big fan of his work, since you spelled his name wrong 😑

From his Wikipedia page: “McWhorter has posited that anti-racism has become as harmful in the United States as racism itself”.

No wonder right wingers like him. But that idea is totally laughable. Comparing “Anti-racism” to the damage of a hundred years of slavery??? Ridiculous.

Not to be outdone, this is what the aforementioned Larry Elder thinks, according to Wikipedia:

"Elder does not believe in systemic racism, calling it a lie. He is a critic of the Black Lives Matter movement, blaming it for rising crime. As part of his criticism of welfare, he stated that it is more harmful to Black families than slavery ever was."

Sometimes the sequel just isn't as good as the first movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NPVvwimXgg

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Originally Posted by Stavros

For the Republic(ans)...Larry Elder, presumably known to Americans?

"Naming policing and crime as two areas of particular concern to him, he told the host: “We’ve incentivised women to marry the government. We’ve incentivised men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility. And if I do nothing else in this race, but focus people on those two issues… I would perform this service to my country.”"
Larry Elder: Who is the latest Republican throwing his hat into the ring for 2024? (yahoo.com)

An unusual take on marriage...

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Indeed it is an unusual take.

Would it not be more honest of Mike Pence to say, not, that 'I am a Christian', but that he wants the USA to be, officially, a Christian Country? For all his talk about God, Family and Country, has he ever praised Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, the Hindu and other religious beliefs? It seems to me that most of the Republicans who promote a Religious agenda, in fact only promote the Christian agenda- and a Christian agenda as defined by them, one that flips faith into intolerance, hope into fear, charity into cruelty.

My guess is that he is not going to go far in this process, but stranger thing have happened in the US Election Cycle.

He is young, articulate and good looking -so why isn't he in the frame for 2024? That said, I don't know if he has been a success in California, or indeed, how to measure success in that complex State.

Gavin Newsom Gives Sean Hannity Blunt Fact-Checks In Fiery Fox News Clash (yahoo.com)

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Originally Posted by Stavros

He is young, articulate and good looking -so why isn't he in the frame for 2024?

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The basic problem is that there is literally no precedent for replacing an incumbent President who wants to run again. Biden has a reasonable record of legislative achievement and there hasn't been any major scandal or policy disaster on his watch. It's not suprising that no prominent Democrat wants to risk causing division in the party by opposing him.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

The basic problem is that there is literally no precedent for replacing an incumbent President who wants to run again. Biden has a reasonable record of legislative achievement and there hasn't been any major scandal or policy disaster on his watch. It's not suprising that no prominent Democrat wants to risk causing division in the party by opposing him.

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You make valid points, disappointing though the situation is for the Democrats.

Another one steps forward, ready to bite the dust, at some time in the future. That said, a Republican who can see the potential danger of Florida sinking into the sea, and sort of doing something about it-

Mayor of Miami Francis Suarez enters 2024 Republican presidential race | US elections 2024 | The Guardian