Students Protest Transgender Teen’s Use of Girls’ Locker Room- What Are Her Rights?

[broncofan]

Lester,
Lifeisfiction understood what I was saying. Perhaps I generalized...he said I was failing to see something from the point of view of the children and I said that we can't just accept someone's subjective experience of something even if it's based on mythology. Then he said logically in response that it isn't so much their subjective views he's concerned with but that at that age it's almost a universal experience to feel self-conscious about your own body. That's my recollection.

I think he also understood I wasn't accusing him of sympathizing with the woman who wants to obstruct gay marriage. The argument is similar to reductio ad absurdum...it basically says that this is the logical consequence of believing what you state for the reasons you state. Then you propose something more severe that you know they would not agree with. It works precisely because they don't agree with the more extreme consequence and they must then provide another reason to support their viewpoint.

If for instance someone says, "I agree with any policy that is democratically passed". You can challenge this by saying, "you would agree with the summary execution of political prisoners if we can get enough votes for it?" The answer is of course no they don't and they must modify their statement or clarify it and tell you they have various other reasons for feeling the way they do.

[jamesedwards]

Now I could actually agree with this, I know two TGirls who are passable and they use the women's bathroom. They have had no problems. But would they if women found out they had cocks and balls? Maybe or maybe not. This is the thing they are ADULTS, and they can probably show some compassion. The reality it some are not going to accept it even if they understand, they just don't like gays, lesbians or TGirls. That's just the way it is.

I definitely feel adult ts women should be able to use female facilities. Some would disagree when it comes to those who are under 18...as I understand the concept of parent autonomy and that they do have recognized rights to control the upbringing of their children which is why it's such a divisive issue.

[lifeisfiction]

Okay, ...enough with the children stuff, they're young adults. Lila's 17 ...I'm guessing her former locker room mates are about the same age. I believe you can join the military at that age and experience the horrors of war. A year later you can become a law enforcement officer in many counties. People at that age understand plenty. There are posters on this site that are half my age that understand shit that it took me decades to understand. This is exactly the time you educate people on stuff like this. We should protect young people (actually all people) from violence...not education.

Eventually someone was going to make a statement about maturity. Yes there are teenagers that very mature and there are adults that very immature. I don't know these kids personally.

1. The first point, I have been making applies not to children, but to everyone. Education is not something to look down upon, the more you learn about something the more you can break stereotypes and barriers. The more you know the better you will accept others. What has helped the LGBT community was helping people understanding they were no different. The shift on gay marriage was the simple fact gay couples are not really different than traditional couples.

2. The age of 18 as a mark of being mature is what is called a legal fiction. There is no basis for it other than we as society feel a person should be accountable at that age. There is nothing magical that happens as a person turns 18. It is the same concept they allows a corporation under certain laws to act as a individual even though a corporation is not a person. So Fred there is merit to your argument that some kids can understand. I will not give a blanket statement that all kids can understand. This the case where the law has to try accommodate all individuals.

I understand if some feel Lila should have no problem and this should not be an issue, but sadly this not what we have. People need to understand the transgender community and who they really are, not some silly idea that has no reflection of the community. It is why when people think of transgender woman they think of some burly guy in a dress. When in reality, guys are usually shocked on how beautiful some women are and it indeed takes time to transition. For some these issues are cut and dry, but no issue is as cut dry as it seems.

I think I have said what could be said without being redundant. I have no interest undermining Lila's rights, but people to understand what Lila is going through so they themselves can see her needs. Without the proper education, it just ends in further misunderstanding.

(There are few more issues, but I will wait to see if someone brings them up)

[Lester316]

broncofan,

I get your point somewhat and ultimately it is lifeisfiction's place to agree or disagree with the specific areas that you both commented on. I interpreted in my way and stand by my comments until lifeisfiction cares to correct me; if they do so I stand corrected.

Your last statement there:

'You can challenge this by saying, "you would agree with the summary execution of political prisoners if we can get enough votes for it?" The answer is of course no they don't and they must modify their statement.'

You are making the assumption there that of course no they don't, that again (whether their opinion is right or wrong) calls for the operation of their mind. Something which none of us can truly be sure of with other people.

I also note you haven't responded to where I have mentioned about how you have at the least misconstrued my words and also called me disingenuous... maybe you missed that part?

I respect your opinion - I don't agree with you in many areas - but I certainly haven't insulted you and suggested you don't mean what you say. As I said earlier I've dealt with homophobia, I understand how hurtful it can be; funnily enough I was less hurt by that in a way though. Suffering from the actions of intolerant people who needed to be educated seeing as society had let them down is something I can rationalize but being called disingenuous (by someone who seems to be an educated and rational person) when I'm very careful in my views, try hard not to offend and speak from both the head and the heart feels much more insulting.

[lifeisfiction]

I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

[broncofan]

I apologize for calling you disingenuous. I suppose what I meant is that I thought we were presented with a package of ideas, some related and some not. We were asked to comment on this one issue, whether Lila should use the restroom, but I thought it occurred in the context of it being used as an example of the perniciousness of lgbt.

I understand it seems unfair that when someone expresses themselves as respectfully and thoughtfully as you have that they should have an affirmative obligation to address everything that is said that is of equal consequence to the primary question. I now accept that you didn't because you are not a confrontational person (a good thing), which means when you said that was your reason, you were not being disingenuous. That's why I am apologizing for saying it.

[jamesedwards]

Hey bro, bring out the issues I would like to see them. They could be important and help someone.

(There are few more issues, but I will wait to see if someone brings them up)

[Lester316]

I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

Thank you, it really is never an easy task and sometimes no matter how hard you try whatever suggestion or solution you come up with will never please everyone or even anyone. Ironically sometimes the result of democracy when debating things and coming up with the solution is that no one is happy with the outcome but at least it is fair.

Perhaps here in the UK Transgender issues/rights are behind the times in terms of publicity compared to the U.S. so my frame of reference is less informed. Or maybe we have just adopted the most rational and doable solutions for circumstances like Lila's and people are just getting on with things in a traditionally stiff upper lip British way without making much of a fuss.

[jamesedwards]

Let me ask this and before I ask let me say this.

For me I am satisfied how the school reacted at accommodating Lila's position and setting Lila up with a locker room.

Do you feel the school handled it well or not?

I feel Lester is being pragmatic about the situation. Trying to find a solution that benefits everyone without undermining anyone. It is never an easy task.

[lifeisfiction]

No, need. They were not address and therefore do need to be brought up. I love discussions where people try and understand each other. I give great respect to broncofan and lester trying to understand each other and come to an understanding of each others view points. While it was not smooth sailing they both displayed a willingness to listen, not just argue for the sake of arguing. A nice change from HA's usual arguments.