Students Protest Transgender Teen’s Use of Girls’ Locker Room- What Are Her Rights?

[Lester316]

Lester,
People haven't focused just on his mode of expression but also the things he has said when he put the question to everyone. You seem to have an issue with this transgender using the female's locker room, but not with an initial post about transsexuals and gay men and women trying to impose their lifestyles on other people. Nor an issue with all sorts of homophobia being promoted within this thread as part of the initial post that we were asked to respond to. I find your claim that you are not here to argue disingenuous when we were responding to the posts in the thread, with special emphasis on the first post which started it.

So what is the topic of this thread? Why don't you read the first post and find out. It is not about whether one transgender girl should use a restroom, but about the pending harm being brought about by transsexuals and gay men and women generally. It would all be nice if we could just state our views in the abstract but we are always at least responding to the first post.

I also don't buy most of your arguments about why a transsexual should not be able to use a restroom matching her gender identity but I was pleased that Fred had posted that our most liberal states have already passed favorable laws and imagine much like gay marriage it will be sorted out in due time. Slippery slope arguments and arguments about administrative efficiency and the majority being able to claim their discomfort trumps the rights of someone with much more at stake don't convince me. But yes, it's kind of bizarre to me that someone can start a thread with pretty obvious hatred and you can pretend that it is not annexed to the main topic or just as relevant to address.

broncofan,
OK let me be 100% clear on a few things. I am responding to the thread with my opinion on an issue, my genuine opinion. I have no issue with Lila or any transgender person using the female locker room (bearing in mind I am not female I can't fully understand the impact on the female students I am simply making a logical assumption that not all of them would be happy with the situation) - I have been debating the practicalities of enforcing such a policy and the impact on people's rights. My belief is that the important point of this thread is to look at how we do things to accommodate everyone's rights to the best of our ability. Key to that is trying to accommodate everyone's rights, it means that whilst that we consider things and do the best we can although that might not always please everyone. Lila is the example cited in the thread; she has been given facilities she can use but wants to use facilities other people use. She has a right to want that, they have a right to not want that. The practical solution until specific laws are debated and passed is for each party use the facilities provided to them.

I read the first post a long time ago, I do not need you to point me in it's direction. I read and replied to the part of it that I wanted to discuss. That I have chosen not to engage homophobic statements means I don't want to debate homophobia with someone who comes off as homophobic, it doesn't mean I condone homophobia in any sense of the word. I am just not interested in arguing that point here in this thread, I have spent enough time in my life dealing and arguing with homophobia and if I want to tackle that specific subject I will.

You can find my stance as disingenuous as you like but it my opinion and utterly genuine, calling me disingenuous just because you disagree with what I have said or because I have chosen not to engage in a particular part of the debate you choose to is ridiculous. I fully understand homophobia and have suffered from it; I know of how homophobia effects people's lives and no one will ever convince me that forcing people to comply with something that they are not comfortable with will ever do anything but damage for those standing up for LGBT rights. If we want to move forward, help people learn and understand then telling parents that their children must share a changing area with another child who is their biological opposite will not work. Promoting understanding so that we can reach a point where children like Lila are better understood and can use the facilities they feel comfortable in will take time; change doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen because you force people. It happens when they learn and realize what is needed.

I personally think that ultimately one day the solution will be better educated parents and children and one big uni-sex locker room; my argument simply is you don't make that happen like a bull in a china shop, you work around the situation as best you can and get there eventually through rational thought.

I should add again I am am always completely genuine when I post here; I don't expect everyone to agree with what I think/say but I consider my thoughts carefully and take time in typing out my arguments, I also always try to be polite and respectful. When you called me disingenuous it is the closest I have ever come on this forum to using some very colorful language in response - I was and still am thoroughly insulted by your accusation. But it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Of course it's safe to say I do not agree.

[Lester316]

I'm suggesting that everyone should be treated the same way.

That's a noble idea. I fully support that. But when people are very different you cannot always treat them the same way; there are a multitude of variables to consider. Hopefully one day we will reach a stage where we have complete and utter equality across the board no matter how diverse people are but we are not there yet.

Normalizing a transgender student by making other people share a locker room with them isn't going to help us reach that place though; opinions currently are too varied and too divisive. It will take a lot of learning, understanding and acceptance first. Enforcing such changes on people who aren't ready to accept them yet is more likely to have a negative effect on their opinion regarding transgender rights than a positive one. Once we reach a point where such changes can be fully democratically put in place that will be a different story altogether.

[Nikka]

[Lester316]

I believe until there is , at the minimum, a state law or dept. of education mandate on these situations, they can often be handled on a case by case basis. In Lila's case I don't think I'd mind if she changed in the same locker room as my daughter (assuming I had one of course)...and I don't think my daughter would mind if she was in any way like me.



What if an all white locker room didn't want a black student changing with them ...or a handicapped student? When do the considerations of the individual outweigh the considerations of the majority in your opinion?
If a psychologist labeled Lila a transsexual , I think I'd be good with that. But I understand that not everyone's going to agree with me on this...ten years ago I probably would have argued otherwise.

Personally if I had a daughter I wouldn't mind either; and I'd hope if I had raised her to follow my beliefs she would be the same. The problem is it's not our hypothetical daughters or the daughters of people who agree with you that will feel uncomfortable with enforced changes such as the one in Lila's case. If we are to respect people's rights we must consider the opinions of people who simply aren't ready for such changes yet and until such point when they are ready (or laws are passed which make things clearer) the practical solution has been provided by the school in the example - there is a third locker room.

The two major differences between Lila's case and those you have suggested (white and black students, fully able or handicapped students) are first of the law (legally we all know where we stand in those cases) and secondly the debate of feelings coupled with genetics. We don't force genetically female and male students of any ethnic or cultural background or levels of able-bodiedness to share changing facilities - we keep the male and females separate particularly in schools as we don't know if they are all emotionally ready to do so. In fact we haven't even reached a point where unisex changing areas for adults are the social norm, it would seem to me that those who are more mature need to be able to deal with such a thing before we make our children do so.

Lila is still 100% biologically male, she identifies as female and feels it is her right to use the female facilities (i get that, I understand it and I sympathize) but I don't think everyone especially children who may not be emotionally ready should be forced into something they aren't ready for because of someone's feelings.

[jamesedwards]

If you keep writing like this, I am going to have to give you the award of GREAT WRITING !!!! LOL

Your point here is also flawed. You are quite correct to suggest it is crazy to think someone would dress up like a girl and wear a wig just to see naked girls but you also point out that schools are rife with bullying and ridicule. It is those aspects of being a teenager at school which perfectly demonstrate the need for a locker room for Transgender students; a place where they can use the facilities with others who understand what they are going through and not a place where they are mixed in with some students who neither understand or sympathize with them.

[lifeisfiction]

That's a noble idea. I fully support that. But when people are very different you cannot always treat them the same way; there are a multitude of variables to consider. Hopefully one day we will reach a stage where we have complete and utter equality across the board no matter how diverse people are but we are not there yet.

Normalizing a transgender student by making other people share a locker room with them isn't going to help us reach that place though; opinions currently are too varied and too divisive. It will take a lot of learning, understanding and acceptance first. Enforcing such changes on people who aren't ready to accept them yet is more likely to have a negative effect on their opinion regarding transgender rights than a positive one. Once we reach a point where such changes can be fully democratically put in place that will be a different story altogether.

We haven't reached that point. I think you have made very strong points, because people are really forgetting we are dealing with kids. Not every 13 year-old will understand the very nature and on top of that we are talking about kids who are very insecure about their own body. I don't know if people have ever worked kids or have kids, but if you have you will know they think they understand the world, but they are still growing up. It is kind of obvious from the teenage girls they don't feel comfortable the with Lila's physical body. Of course, the body of naked boy will come as shock to some of them. Even though some understand it is a little girl still learning about their selves in a new manner. This is something different. Obviously they have never dealt with, neither were educated and plainly will struggle to grasp.

Lila just started transition and will in time learn, transition takes time, it is something that does not happen over night. While people may support her transition, it will take time for people to become not accepting, but seeing her as Lila. Lila has just begun to transition, some should help her understand it takes time for people to adjust, understand come to terms with a person's new identity. They as student body has seen her as identify as a particular sexual identity. Now she is telling them she wants to transition. We don't live there, we don't know her, but they do.

Its not whether my daughter or son or realiative of a similar age will understand. It is do they have the maturity and understanding to handle something that teenagers in general struggle with, my goodness have you ever had to deal with a little girl constantly comparing her body to her friends. Sheesh. We cannot thrust something up a child and expect them as an adult to handle it.

Lester has made solid points and if you disagree focus on his arguments nothing else.

[jamesedwards]

You are nuts, just like your name request! First off the Avatar is not photo shopped that's her regular cock! See you are talking out of your ass again!
My purpose again, is to protect THE GIRLS RIGHTS! Everyone knows I love me some TG and along with my GG have some good freaky sex! I am a grown up! As grown ups we should not impose our shit on young girls or boys, let them mature into their own sexual infrastructure without being shocked, or forced into some sexual bullshit of another who don't follow rules. What I mean by that is Lila was given a locker specifically to Lila. Now you tell me this, why in the fuck would Lila then go into the girls locker room after Lila was given Lila's own locker room? How many times do I have to say the school accommodated Lila and respected that Lila needed Lila's on space then Lila makes the decision to violate the girls locker room. Answer that question! This shit is not hard, its not about my avatar, its not being a troglodyte, Neanderthal or any primitive being. You keep talking about shit that has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

I brought it up because its serious, their might be another young TG here wanted to do the same thing to people who don't accept TG. You can't make people accept TG's, I can't! you know what makes me different from you? I like feminine TG's but I don't let that shit blind me from the fact of other people's facts and reality, you do! You're so caught up in defending TG's even when they are wrong you try and make the wrong seem right, I am not going for that shit!

Why would Lila go into the girl's locker room after Lila was given Lila's own facility to change?

James uses an avatar of a TS with a large cock, photoshopped to appear abnormally huge, yet drones on and on about the abnormality of a human being attracted to the same organs they currently possess. This troglodyte serves no further purpose on this forum.

The first time I drank beer, it was a lifestyle choice. The first time I smoked weed, it was a lifestyle choice. When I converted to Islam in college, it was a lifestyle choice (same thing when I decided that all religion is stupid, and became an Atheist). In all of those scenarios, I weighed the decisions, comparing and contrasting the pros and the cons.

The first time I kissed a girl, I was in Kindergarten. I didn't consciously sit there and think about whether I wanted to kiss a boy or a girl. I wasn't attracted to the boys, at all. At a very young age, I liked girls. I wasn't even aware of TS women until I got to college. The first time I saw Thais Anderson jerking off in House of Shemales, I got an erection, and at that point, I realized I was attracted to beautiful women with penises. Jailhouse beast TS women do nothing for me. I don't get an erection looking at a naked man.

Watching TS porn is a lifestyle choice. Being attracted to TS women, or being attracted to a member of the same sex, is not a lifestyle choice. It's unbelievably stupid to hold this viewpoint in 2015. But considering the source, I'm not surprised.

[broncofan]

I haven't seen any really solid points. He says the difference between the examples Fred provided and the other groups of people are that we know where we stand on those other issues because the law is established. But there was actually a point in time where we did not know where we stood on those issues as we had segregated bathrooms. The argument basically says that we should favor laws that have been around a long time and are well established (a traditionalist argument), that the rights of the majority should trump those of a minority regardless of the rights at stake, and that you cannot force people to be more inclusive. Is that true? Have we ever forced people to be more inclusive in this country or just waited for them to become more educated? I would say we do that frequently. If people do things without legislation then the legislation is hardly necessary. Again, it's not the disagreement I mind so much but the claim that others were straying from topic.

I think I am being told I should focus only on what he's said regardless of what he's said it in response to. Sorry but that's just not how things work. If for instance, I said I disagreed with the actions of the NAACP on one issue and someone responded directly to me with a barrage of racism, I would probably address it. Or if someone had a criticism of the anti-defamation league (an organization that combats anti-semitism) and I agreed with their criticism, but their criticism also included all sorts of vulgar statements I would not demand we only talk about the ADL. I appreciate he wants to talk about a sub-set of the issues, but he also urged other people to remain on topic. I was only reminding him of what that topic is.

[jamesedwards]

If motha fuckas are so stupid to think I don't support TGirls you are out of your FUCKING MIND! There are plenty of topics one can easily show me sexing a TGirl and sucking TGirl's cock etc. Again, I will not let my like for TGirls blind me from taking a stance or what is right! I fuck TGirls along with my GG or alone without my GG but that don't mean I should fucking force young girls or boys to what I like, I am a grown fucking man. Children need to be protected bottom fucking line. That's a fact not an opinion, if you think children shouldn't be protected then you are beyond a fucking troglodyte you are fucking EVIL! How about that!

These young people have to deal with to much shit as I have posted, now this too? What else? What's next? You know why they walked out? Because pressure bust pipes they can't take it no more. They are saying fuck this shit, we have to deal with terrorism, weapons, rape etc now this shit? Fuck this! I don't blame them, and they are not stupid either. The fact, not opinion that Lila was given a place to change fucks Lila's whole shit up. The fact is Lila violated the school system! Plan and simple.

WHEN DO WE PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!!

[jamesedwards]

You just typed a bunch of bullshit, I am beginning to really think you're a troll, then you motha fuckas got the nerve to try and flip it back on me about me trolling, fucking serious?

Bronco Fan, WHY DID LILA LEAVE THE LOCKER ROOM GIVEN TO LILA BY THE SCHOOL AND VIOLATE IT TO GO INTO THE GIRLS LOCKER ROOM? DO YOU THINK IT WAS WRONG FOR THE YOUNG GIRLS TO WALK OUT OF SCHOOL?

I haven't seen any really solid points. He says the difference between the examples Fred provided and the other groups of people are that we know where we stand on those other issues because the law is established. But there was actually a point in time where we did not know where we stood on those issues as we had segregated bathrooms. The argument basically says that we should favor laws that have been around a long time and are well established (a traditionalist argument), that the rights of the majority should trump those of a minority regardless of the rights at stake, and that you cannot force people to be more inclusive. Is that true? Have we ever forced people to be more inclusive in this country or just waited for them to become more educated? I would say we do that frequently. If people do things without legislation then the legislation is hardly necessary. Again, it's not the disagreement I mind so much but the claim that others were straying from topic.

I think I am being told I should focus only on what he's said regardless of what he's said it in response to. Sorry but that's just not how things work. If for instance, I said I disagreed with the actions of the NAACP on one issue and someone responded directly to me with a barrage of racism, I would probably address it. Or if someone had a criticism of the anti-defamation league (an organization that combats anti-semitism) and I agreed with their criticism, but their criticism also included all sorts of vulgar statements I would not demand we only talk about the ADL. I appreciate he wants to talk about a sub-set of the issues, but he also urged other people to remain on topic. I was only reminding him of what that topic is.