Arizona Bill Would Restrict Bathrooms by Birth Gender

[GroobySteven]

Maybe you're joking or typed too quickly? Because that's completely ridiculous. No one has to have a law for who goes in a bathroom. Societies have worked fine for millennia without that. We have too many laws already, an overly punitive a culture, too many people in prison, and $2500 is an batshit insane penalty for something like that.

Sometimes my girlfriend ducks in a men's room if there's no space in the ladies. Sometimes I knock on an empty women's room if the men's room has no towels. The idea that ID's are going to be checked before entering bathrooms is so laughably infeasible... anyone who thinks that's going to happen all over a state has just lost touch with reality.

I'm not joking or typing too quickly, perhaps you better slow down and re-read it before you continue to embarrass yourself. I never stated that it would be checked before you went in but if they want to create a law that would only allow "women" into bathrooms, then if a TG was stopped or the police called having her female ID should negate any further prosecutions based on her "birth gender".

I'm fairly sure if a man enters a woman's bathroom then security or police would be called so that law is probably already in place. I certainly don't want a guy in a dress following my wife/mother/daughter/friend into the girls bathroom just because they feel they have the legal right to do it.

[iagodelgado]

As someone who has managed large teams in 3 companies in the FTSE 100, I would have to agree with Seanchai.

I consider myself a trans ally, but this is an área where there is potentially a massive risk of danger for the trans community. I couldn´t support a birth certificate test, or a driving licence test. I had too many female team members who would have been seriously upset to propose that.

It might be a different test, such as a diagnosis of GID. Or there may be a better test. But not - I say I am trans therefore I am trans. You have to come up with something that passes the 'hearts and minds' test of the many females in your team.

On a lighter note I had a female friend who ran marathons etc, which requires going to the loo shortly before the start of race. She always used the men's as the q for the ladies was infinitely long.

[TempestTS]

I'm not joking or typing too quickly, perhaps you better slow down and re-read it before you continue to embarrass yourself. I never stated that it would be checked before you went in but if they want to create a law that would only allow "women" into bathrooms, then if a TG was stopped or the police called having her female ID should negate any further prosecutions based on her "birth gender".

I'm fairly sure if a man enters a woman's bathroom then security or police would be called so that law is probably already in place. I certainly don't want a guy in a dress following my wife/mother/daughter/friend into the girls bathroom just because they feel they have the legal right to do it.

First I have to disagree with Seanchai - the potential "Sexual Predator" excuse holds no water. You can be a male gay sexual predator and walk into the mens room with little boys and other guys without question - hell a guy can even be a convicted sex crime offender against other men and still be allowed to use the mens room... same in the case for a lesbian sexual predator and the Ladies room. Treating Cross dressers - part time TS - or any other TS variant as different is completely invalid and unfair.

In addition forcing any trans identifying / presenting individual to use the restroom of something other than their presentation opens them up to the potential of being harassed or worse... I wouldnt want to be forced to use the Mens room in an AZ truck stop, might get mighty unfriendly there if someone has a problem with TS and I would be stuck in a very private enclosed space with only one exit... not good.

EVERYONE should be required to act with civil decency when using a communal resource like a restroom. The legality should only be brought in to question if someone does not REGARDLESS of GENDER - and then the appropriate actions should be taken.

In my state there are LGBT equality laws in place that allow a trans individual to use the restroom of their gender identity - no ID is required.

The ID rule is bad to begin with because some states make it very difficult to get your gender marker changed on your ID unless you have had full SRS (although other states can also be a lot easier)

Requiring it on your Birth Certificate (as the AZ law would require) is a horrible idea - who the fuck carries their birth certificate around with them??? And there are a few states that simply WILL NOT change a birth record gender marker - you can get everything else changed but what the doctor decided you were when you popped out is going to stay. (honestly I dont remember the doctor even asking me so who the hell is he to say, arguably I was a bit young at the time and its all a bit fuzzy)

Lastly - I have Never been questioned when using the restroom or stopped from using the one that matches my gender identity.

The day that happens things are going to get real interesting and I guarantee it will make the papers.

[GroobySteven]

Treating Cross dressers - part time TS - or any other TS variant as different is completely invalid and unfair.

I think in this instance (and I've been an advocate for all TG's in many other areas) but I completely disagree. A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish or just out of comfort does not have to have the same rights and a transsexual who identifies and lives as a woman. A unisex toilet would be the best solution for all establishments going forward but to give a CD/TV the same status as a TS, brings up way too many contradictions and also undermines what a transsexual is trying to accomplish in terms of being that woman, that she is.

[TempestTS]

I think in this instance (and I've been an advocate for all TG's in many other areas) but I completely disagree. A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish or just out of comfort does not have to have the same rights and a transsexual who identifies and lives as a woman. A unisex toilet would be the best solution for all establishments going forward but to give a CD/TV the same status as a TS, brings up way too many contradictions and also undermines what a transsexual is trying to accomplish in terms of being that woman, that she is.

And I again disagree. And respectfully so - this is a debate not a street fight - I know you hold TG in high regard and I appreciate your continued advocacy - that is not in question in the least.

For the record I also agree that CD/TS who conduct themselves in inappropriate ways undermines the whole TG community because they are viewed as part of it and we are facing a battle that is often fought uphill and on broken glass when it comes to public perception - we dont need harmful or negative connotations associated with us.

A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish

My point is how can you tell? Simply by the way they look? Lets face it some girls have a much harder time that others. And lets not forget trans men and how they factor in to this - why is it only MTF that appear to be in question here, and why is it only the Ladies Room that we are worried about? A standard without being Fair is no standard at all.

If what you are saying is someone (CD/TV ect) who is acting in a sexually predatory way should not be allowed to use the privacy of the restroom to carry that to higher levels then I would support that statement - So long as it applies to all genders and presentations.

How you dress or the gender it presents has nothing to do with being more or less likely to engage in unacceptable behavior - judge on actions - not on appearances - (although granted a flamboyant appearance *regardless of gender* tends to draw more attention so we may notice the actions of those individuals more which is unavoidable)

[GroobySteven]

And I again disagree. And respectfully so - this is a debate not a street fight - I know you hold TG in high regard and I appreciate your continued advocacy - that is not in question in the least.

My point is how can you tell? Simply by the way they look? Lets face it some girls have a much harder time that others. And lets not forget trans men and how they factor in to this - why is it only MTF that appear to be in question here, and why is it only the Ladies Room that we are worried about? A standard without being Fair is no standard at all.

If what you are saying is someone (CD/TV ect) who is acting in a sexually predatory way should not be allowed to use the privacy of the restroom to carry that to higher levels then I would support that statement - So long as it applies to all genders and presentations.

How you dress or the gender it presents has nothing to do with being more or less likely to engage in unacceptable behavior - judge on actions - not on appearances - (although granted a flamboyant appearance *regardless of gender* tends to draw more attention so we may notice the actions of those individuals more which is unavoidable)

That's actually part of my point and I stated that, how can one tell whether it's a transsexual or a CD/TV. I was just throwing the ID as "proof" into the mix as an idea as I can't see how else it could be done. Now we're not talking about FTM or MTF transsexuals, we're talking about including people who are neither, who simply dress that way as a fetish (or sexual kick, or whatever).

I didn't state that those people (those who aren't TS but want to use the opposite sex's bathrooms) are necessarily going to engage in unacceptable behavior but if they are
a) transvestite's ie; dressing because they feel more comfortable dressed as a woman but identify with being MALE - then they should use the men's bathroom.

b) CD (or whatever terminology) dressing for a sexual kick, then I don't think the opposite sex's restroom is an appropriate place for them to fulfill their fantasies and yes, I would question whether they are more likely to engage in unacceptable behavior.

This isn't just about slighting some TV/CD's feelings. It's about other people and allowing them the right privacy that they should have in a Male of Female bathroom and it's about transsexual's rights to be seen as a female and accepted (regardless of how they look) that they can use female facilities. Allowing anyone who says "I have the right to use a woman's bathroom just because I've cross-dressed today" undermines too much.

[TempestTS]

That's actually part of my point and I stated that, how can one tell whether it's a transsexual or a CD/TV. I was just throwing the ID as "proof" into the mix as an idea as I can't see how else it could be done. Now we're not talking about FTM or MTF transsexuals, we're talking about including people who are neither, who simply dress that way as a fetish (or sexual kick, or whatever).

I didn't state that those people (those who aren't TS but want to use the opposite sex's bathrooms) are necessarily going to engage in unacceptable behavior but if they are
a) transvestite's ie; dressing because they feel more comfortable dressed as a woman but identify with being MALE - then they should use the men's bathroom.

b) CD (or whatever terminology) dressing for a sexual kick, then I don't think the opposite sex's restroom is an appropriate place for them to fulfill their fantasies and yes, I would question whether they are more likely to engage in unacceptable behavior.

This isn't just about slighting some TV/CD's feelings. It's about other people and allowing them the right privacy that they should have in a Male of Female bathroom and it's about transsexual's rights to be seen as a female and accepted (regardless of how they look) that they can use female facilities. Allowing anyone who says "I have the right to use a woman's bathroom just because I've cross-dressed today" undermines too much.

Ok I sense we are going to disagree on the finer points - it happens. I doubt very much there is a perfect solution to this type of situation and I certainly havent found it if there is one...

Lets just go with this for everyone learning to live together in harmony... regardless of what bathroom they use.

[GroobySteven]

Ok I sense we are going to disagree on the finer points - it happens. I doubt very much there is a perfect solution to this type of situation and I certainly havent found it if there is one...

Lets just go with this for everyone learning to live together in harmony... regardless of what bathroom they use.

The solution would be to have unisex bathrooms!

[TempestTS]

The solution would be to have unisex bathrooms!

Provided we as a civilization can be reach the mentality where we can deal with that concept... I think every day we get a little closer but humanity has such a very long way to go...

Ok Ill shut up now...

[Lexilove]

This is sad, but not at all surprising. The government is a corrupt cult full of assholes! I say we just ignore the government, stop voting, stop watching T.V. and just do whatever the fuck we want! Current politics is beyond repair. Human beings need to start treating each like human beings and not animals! If it's not race, its gender, or religion, or sexuality, blah blah blah BLAH. I say we round up all the backwoods, ignorant, hateful bastards, put them in work camps where they can do something useful with their lives like farm organic/pesticide free food to help end hunger in this country...How about introducing that bill? Y ou think it would pass?