A Question of Sport - and Trans Athletes

[mildcigar_2001]

I think this is one of these issues that if some of the Trans Community keep pushing for, is going to cause a backlash for the transsexuals in general and not just the Trans athletes. Just because someone identifies as a woman doesn't mean that the person's biology magically changes.

The American People are going to go along with "political correctness" so long as it doesn't obviously defy common sense. Americans are going to see their daughters and wives being cheated, and there will be a negative reaction towards transsexuals.

I am sympathetic to the Trans Community, and generally support people living any way they see fit (as long as they don't hurt others). I don't think Trans people should be discriminated against, and should be allowed to live their best lives.

That being said, it is unfair to girls/women to have to compete against male to female transsexuals.

The Trans athletes need to compete in the men's bracket, or develop trans only sports. This may be unfair to transsexual athletes, but this is one of these cases where we as a society has to choose the outcome that causes the least harm.

[brooksglass]

I'm trans myself. I used to play full contact Rugby League(the best kind of Rugby , I dropped a lot of muscle when I transitioned but I didn't want to play a contact sport where I would hurt someone. I now play tag rugby league for fun which is a mixed gender league and is non contact

[MrFanti]

Trans women have been allowed to compete at the olympics since the 90s. None have every qualified or won anything, it’s a non issue. They should compete with women because they are women

Hmmm....very TOUGH and delicate debate/topic.
What about basketball and volleyball where height is a distinct advantage?

[SanDiegoPervySage]

Let's say theres a genetic man and genetic woman who get into arguement. If the woman gets mad and punches the man, then the man lunches the woman in retaliation and knocks her out cold, how many of the pro trans integrationists are going to say he shouldn't have hit her because men/males are NATURALLY strong stronger and BIOLOGICALLY have a greater advantage?

Im sure a great number, if not the majority, will say that. I'm no medical professional and dont understand the human body on any real level, but you can't convince me that even while being hormones that the male body will just negate everything that is naturally male in the physiology. Also, not all trans women are on hormones all the time. Not to mention, I'm assuming hormonal dosage if different for each person. But when it comes to sports, people want to say "it's all about skill, not genetics", while at the same time much of the discussion around sports, especially mens sports is how these athletes are genetic freaks(LeBron, Zion Williamson, Jim Brown, Sage Northcut).

Not to mention, for the ones who transition later in life. They've grown up as males, trained and competed with males, went through their developmental years as males, possibly had nutrition plans tailored to males. That's gotta play a factor into ones ability.

Since they can compete, good luck to them, but I can't see this as overall fair either.

[Stavros]

Allow me to suggest that we are faced here with a conflict between the concept of fairness, and the concept of rights. Because sport at the professional level has rules and regulations, it cannot be forced to submit to a 'rights' based campaign, unless it decides to change its rules. I think, for example, there have been times when disabled athletes competed with able athletes, and as far as I am aware, the able bodied athletes always won -disabled athletes may claim the right to compete, but is it fair? I suspect that unless the disabled athlete is truly sensational, the outcome is that people feel the competition was not fair.

Thus, transgendered athletes might claim a right to participate, but with the specific sport concerned, would it produce a fair outcome? It becomes even more complex if the person concerned has not attempted to transition to male or female using hormones, surgery, etc, but 'identifies' as a man or a woman, or indeed, as non-binary, and demands on that basis the right to compete against men and women. The sport's regulations to change might recognize the rights of 'gender fluid' athletes and sportspersons, but would the outcome on the field of play be fair?

[Nick Danger]

There is only one possible victim-class in this discussion and that is genetic females. Genetic men would have no problem with FtM transgenders competing in their sports because it isn't going to happen - maybe on a single-case basis here and there but in general, genetic women can't compete with genetic men at any sport, not at the highest level anyway.

Genetic females need to make this call. Men mostly don't care about women's sports anyway, and I'm not saying that as an opinion. Attendance and viewership numbers tell that story with no help from me.

I think if you DO leave that question up to genetic females, the answer is going to be "No."

Sports is about competition. Fair competition.

[Torris]

There is only one possible victim-class in this discussion and that is genetic females. Genetic men would have no problem with FtM transgenders competing in their sports because it isn't going to happen - maybe on a single-case basis here and there but in general, genetic women can't compete with genetic men at any sport, not at the highest level anyway.

Genetic females need to make this call. Men mostly don't care about women's sports anyway, and I'm not saying that as an opinion. Attendance and viewership numbers tell that story with no help from me.

I think if you DO leave that question up to genetic females, the answer is going to be "No."

Sports is about competition. Fair competition.

A friend of mine has a daughter on the local university soccer team. Her concern regards showering after practice and events with trans competitors who still have penises

[MrFanti]

Genetic men would have no problem with FtM transgenders competing in their sports because it isn't going to happen.

I have a F-T-M friend that plays on a male semi-pro football team.

[Nick Danger]

I have a F-T-M friend that plays on a male semi-pro football team.

That's pretty cool. Still, not the highest level of competition. But I'd like to see it.

Currently there are no FtM transgenders OR genetic females playing in the NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL, which covers the highest level of the 4 major sports in America. There are no rules against it, any human who can play at that level is eligible to do so. It just doesn't happen. If it does, I'll be cheering for them.

I used to be a table tennis player as a teenager, won a state championship actually, at age 13. 13-14 was my age group and I was pretty dominant. The next year my father decided to put me into the 15-16 group even though I was only 14. I got my ass kicked. HAD HE ASKED ME I'd have told him I wanted to stay where I was. But he didn't ask. Damn the patriarchy!

[Kiwi_bloke]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

The outcome of this will be to drive a further wedge between feminists and trans activists/LGBT+ communities

Already has, and the outcome seems to be that women who are standing up and saying it's unfair are immediately labelled as transphobes or TERFs.

Without some sort of medical certification what is to stop male athletes from “self identifying” as women when they couldn’t gain a scholarship as male athletes.

Four year scholarship and after athletic eligibility runs out they go back to being male

That is most certainly going to be an unintended consequence of Biden’s EO

Bingo! That's exactly what can happen.

I understand the reasoning behind the law change, but jeez, was it ever a terribly (or not at all!) thought-out piece of legislation.

I think this is one of these issues that if some of the Trans Community keep pushing for, is going to cause a backlash for the transsexuals in general and not just the Trans athletes. Just because someone identifies as a woman doesn't mean that the person's biology magically changes.

Again, exactly right. I've seen push-back against it already, and it seems dumb to risk all the other gains for one area, which the sports themselves will shut down anyway.

That being said, it is unfair to girls/women to have to compete against male to female transsexuals.

The Trans athletes need to compete in the men's bracket, or develop trans only sports. This may be unfair to transsexual athletes, but this is one of these cases where we as a society has to choose the outcome that causes the least harm.

Agree 100%. I very slightly know the mountain biker and she was gutted. She'd trained her entire life and gets pushed aside by an athlete who'd competed for years as a male and never quite made the top, then suddenly decides to "transition". I use the speech marks because the transition was self-identifying as trans - no surgery, no hormones...

Allow me to suggest that we are faced here with a conflict between the concept of fairness, and the concept of rights. Because sport at the professional level has rules and regulations, it cannot be forced to submit to a 'rights' based campaign, unless it decides to change its rules. I think, for example, there have been times when disabled athletes competed with able athletes, and as far as I am aware, the able bodied athletes always won -disabled athletes may claim the right to compete, but is it fair? I suspect that unless the disabled athlete is truly sensational, the outcome is that people feel the competition was not fair.

Thus, transgendered athletes might claim a right to participate, but with the specific sport concerned, would it produce a fair outcome? It becomes even more complex if the person concerned has not attempted to transition to male or female using hormones, surgery, etc, but 'identifies' as a man or a woman, or indeed, as non-binary, and demands on that basis the right to compete against men and women. The sport's regulations to change might recognize the rights of 'gender fluid' athletes and sportspersons, but would the outcome on the field of play be fair?

Other sports need to take a look at boxing. It's not fair to have a 150 lb fighter lining up against a 250 lb fighter, so you have different classes.

Sports is about competition. Fair competition.

Another one utterly nailed.

We have drug tests to stop people gaining an unfair advantage.

Allowing self-identification as the only criteria is as stupid to me as allowing people to self-identify as disabled and be allowed to compete against people who are genuinely disabled.