Can and trade: reality or fear mongering?

[thx1138]

[thx1138]

OOPS: make that CAP and trade.

[The Hierophant]

There is a right way and a wrong way to do Cap & Trade. In the past, Governments have charged money for "Carbon Credits", which inevitably leads to a game of companies buying them from eachother, and that has become a problem.

If, instead of charging money for the credits, the Government gives them away for free, as needed, but only has a limited amount to give out every year, then the companies won't try to sell them because the supply is limited.

[techi]

I think we are soon going to be paying mini-bar prices for our electricity. And all the profits are going to be captured by middlemen traders/speculators.

Welcome to Al Gore's Cap&Trade plantation. Yeee Haw!

[MarkD]

If this bill passes then we are going to notice the cost of everything go up tremendously with no end in sight. If you want to see what the result will be then head over to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office website and you can see first hand what the cost of fuel, energy will run. It's truly shocking especially when the Obama Administration surpessed a report last week from the EPA reporting we have been cooling not warming.

If passed Cap and Trade will break this countries back.

[hippifried]

I notice a trend in the crypto-conservative whine. The dire consequences that are predicted are usually just a description of what's already going on.

We've been doing cap & trade for decades. Almost all the big stacks around the country are fitted with scrubbers now. That's why nobody's talking about acid rain anymore. That was the fix. It worked. Now we're going after the other chemical compounds, in more sources.

We're already paying minibar prices. Every time you deregulate monopolies, the price goes up. What's new? The "market" can't control monopolies because there's no competition. If your light bill is too high, what're you gonna do? Call the other power company?

[techi]

I notice a trend in the crypto-conservative whine. The dire consequences that are predicted are usually just a description of what's already going on.

We've been doing cap & trade for decades. Almost all the big stacks around the country are fitted with scrubbers now. That's why nobody's talking about acid rain anymore. That was the fix. It worked. Now we're going after the other chemical compounds, in more sources.

We're already paying minibar prices. Every time you deregulate monopolies, the price goes up. What's new? The "market" can't control monopolies because there's no competition. If your light bill is too high, what're you gonna do? Call the other power company?

Uh, what's a crypto-conservative? Is that like a neocon, closet conservative or maybe just stupid rednecks? I tried wiki... no luck.

How is putting scrubbers on smoke stacks the same as Cap&Trade? My beef with Cap&Trade is that it opens yet another door for middleman speculators in our markets. I'd prefer a straight up federal tax on oil&coal... then at least the money goes to the government instead of directly to a middleman(Al Gore).

I agree that the deregulating of our monopolies has been insane. Governments may be poor money managers but cartels and monopolies are outright rapists.

Personally I don't believe that man made global warming is anywhere near as pronounced as Al Gore states it to be. I believe that the solar activity from the sun is by far and away the dominant driver of earth temperature.

That said, I'm all for increasing the cost of coal&oil. Coal is one of the dirtiest energy source immaginable. Even "clean coal" is gonna put a lot of crap into the air. Oil is dirty too and besides... oil comes from crazy unstable countries that I'd rather not be sending US Dollars to.

[techi]

If you want to see what the result will be then head over to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office website and you can see first hand what the cost of fuel, energy will run. It's truly shocking especially when the Obama Administration surpessed a report last week from the EPA reporting we have been cooling not warming.

Yeah, it's gotta be pretty embarrasing for our politicians to be pushing a global warming agenda when the earth has been cooling over the last decade. Fortunatly politicians are a shameless lot.

[Rogers]

If you want to see what the result will be then head over to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office website and you can see first hand what the cost of fuel, energy will run. It's truly shocking especially when the Obama Administration surpessed a report last week from the EPA reporting we have been cooling not warming.

Yeah, it's gotta be pretty embarrasing for our politicians to be pushing a global warming agenda when the earth has been cooling over the last decade. Fortunatly politicians are a shameless lot.

Oh noes, not this again!

It really is very simple. If the world wasn't warming long-term glaciers and sea-ice would not be retreating.

New NASA Satellite Survey Reveals Dramatic Arctic Sea Ice Thinning
July 07, 2009
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2009-107

Asides from the sun, our planet's trajectory around it, and greenhouse gases, our climate is effected by oceanic systems such as the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation. We are currently at the top of the A.M.O.'s 70 year cycle.

Next decade 'may see no warming'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7376301.stm

Climate of suspicion
Global warming is a fact whatever its deniers - encouraged by a cool year - have to say
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf.../climatechange

The Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation
http://www.intellicast.com/Community/Content.aspx?a=127

[hippifried]

[quote="techi"]

I notice a trend in the crypto-conservative whine. The dire consequences that are predicted are usually just a description of what's already going on.

We've been doing cap & trade for decades. Almost all the big stacks around the country are fitted with scrubbers now. That's why nobody's talking about acid rain anymore. That was the fix. It worked. Now we're going after the other chemical compounds, in more sources.

We're already paying minibar prices. Every time you deregulate monopolies, the price goes up. What's new? The "market" can't control monopolies because there's no competition. If your light bill is too high, what're you gonna do? Call the other power company?

Uh, what's a crypto-conservative? Is that like a neocon, closet conservative or maybe just stupid rednecks? I tried wiki... no luck.

I can't make heads or tails of those labels. "Crypto" is a prefix meaning false. Like "faux", "ersatz", or "pseudo".

How is putting scrubbers on smoke stacks the same as Cap&Trade? My beef with Cap&Trade is that it opens yet another door for middleman speculators in our markets. I'd prefer a straight up federal tax on oil&coal... then at least the money goes to the government instead of directly to a middleman(Al Gore).

"Cap & trade" is just a carrot & stick approach to bring industries into compliance with government regulations. That's the approach that was used to goad the smokestack industries into scrubbing out the particulates & capturing the sulpheric acid. By the time all was said & done, the scrubbers paid for themselves with the byproducts & the caps went away. Now we're going after the rest of the polutants. There's no reason that the emmissions from fossil fuel burning can't be recaptured & recycled into something that pays. There's already prototypes.

I agree that the deregulating of our monopolies has been insane. Governments may be poor money managers but cartels and monopolies are outright rapists.

Everybody wants to corner their respective markets. That's why we have regulation & anti-trust laws.

Personally I don't believe that man made global warming is anywhere near as pronounced as Al Gore states it to be. I believe that the solar activity from the sun is by far and away the dominant driver of earth temperature.

That was the attitude toward acid rain too. The withering fields & peeling paint around the stacks said different. So the stacks went higher. That was supposed to dissipate the smoke, & it worked to get it out of the localiaties of the stacks. Then the distant forests started dying. Oops! Now it's all crossing state & international lines & therefore becomes a federal problem. Global warming is a long term problem. We're speeding up the natural climatic processes. We don't need to fix the air. We just need to stop messing it up. It's all about solar warming & changes to the relative density of the atmosphere that blocks or amplifies the solar radiation either &/or both ways. The earth is a self-cleaning system if it's not overwhelmed.

That said, I'm all for increasing the cost of coal&oil. Coal is one of the dirtiest energy source immaginable. Even "clean coal" is gonna put a lot of crap into the air. Oil is dirty too and besides... oil comes from crazy unstable countries that I'd rather not be sending US Dollars to.

I don't think costs need to be artificially increased. That's going to happen anyway in our mad dash to burn up as much fuel as possible in as short a time as possible. Ooga booga, the fire god has spoken & EXXON is his prophet. We just need to act as smart as we are & quit being sheep.